Bill Evans' "Displacement"and "Giant Steps"

[Michael West]

Just wondering whether anyone else has listened to
Bill Evans' "Displacement" on his 1956 album "New
Jazz Conceptions" and been blown away by the
foreshadowing of John Coltrane's "Giant Steps"
(1959).

[Mark Eisenman]

Post by Michael West
Just wondering whether anyone else has listened to
Bill Evans' "Displacement" on his 1956 album "New
Jazz Conceptions" and been blown away by the
foreshadowing of John Coltrane's "Giant Steps"
(1959).

What's the relationship?

Mark

[Michael West]

Post by Mark Eisenman

Post by Michael West
Just wondering whether anyone else has listened to
Bill Evans' "Displacement" on his 1956 album "New
Jazz Conceptions" and been blown away by the
foreshadowing of John Coltrane's "Giant Steps"
(1959).

What's the relationship?

I take it then that you don't hear it?

[td]

Yes, good point. To me it actually sounds like a mix of Moment's Notice with
Giant Steps.

Post by Michael West
Just wondering whether anyone else has listened to
Bill Evans' "Displacement" on his 1956 album "New
Jazz Conceptions" and been blown away by the
foreshadowing of John Coltrane's "Giant Steps"
(1959).
--
Michael West

[Michael West]

Post by td
Yes, good point. To me it actually sounds like a mix of Moment's Notice with
Giant Steps.

Yes, and the one Trane wrote on "Tune Up" --
I forget the name. Or is that the one you mean?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

On Sun, 09 May 2004 13:27:05 GMT, "Michael West"

Post by Michael West
Just wondering whether anyone else has listened to
Bill Evans' "Displacement" on his 1956 album "New
Jazz Conceptions" and been blown away by the
foreshadowing of John Coltrane's "Giant Steps"
(1959).

It's interesting - there are indeed a number of similarities - the
repetitive harmonic rhythm, the 'melody' really being just the chord
voicings, the modulation through more distant keys, the ii-Vs at the
end of the first half of the form.

I haven't transcribed it to look closely at it but I don't think it
addresses the main harmonic point of Giant Steps, the major third
relationships.

Mike


***@eclipse.net
http://www.eclipse.net/~fitzgera - Gigi Gryce book - ARSC award winner!
http://www.JazzDiscography.com

[Mark Eisenman]

Post by Michael Fitzgerald
On Sun, 09 May 2004 13:27:05 GMT, "Michael West"

Post by Michael West
Just wondering whether anyone else has listened to
Bill Evans' "Displacement" on his 1956 album "New
Jazz Conceptions" and been blown away by the
foreshadowing of John Coltrane's "Giant Steps"
(1959).

It's interesting - there are indeed a number of similarities - the
repetitive harmonic rhythm, the 'melody' really being just the chord
voicings, the modulation through more distant keys, the ii-Vs at the
end of the first half of the form.
I haven't transcribed it to look closely at it but I don't think it
addresses the main harmonic point of Giant Steps, the major third
relationships.

I haven't transcribed it either, and am intrigued. Because that's what I was
looking to hear, the equal division of the octave into major thirds.
I don't think "Displacement" does this. So, no I don't hear the realtionship
to Giant Steps.
It's sure not as close to Giant Steps as the verse to the tune "Till The
Clouds Roll By" Jerome Kern. This example is truly uncanny.
Even more amazing because it was written in 1917!!


Mark

[Michael West]

Post by Mark Eisenman
It's sure not as close to Giant Steps as the verse to the tune "Till The
Clouds Roll By" Jerome Kern.

Depends on how you define "close". It certainly has
nothing of the rhythmic feel of "Giant Steps."

Post by Mark Eisenman
This example is truly uncanny.
Even more amazing because it was written in 1917!!

That seems an odd way of putting it, unless you're
absolutely sure that Trane never heard it.

[Mark Eisenman]

Post by Michael West

Post by Mark Eisenman
It's sure not as close to Giant Steps as the verse to the tune "Till The
Clouds Roll By" Jerome Kern.

Depends on how you define "close". It certainly has
nothing of the rhythmic feel of "Giant Steps."

Post by Mark Eisenman
This example is truly uncanny.
Even more amazing because it was written in 1917!!

That seems an odd way of putting it, unless you're
absolutely sure that Trane never heard it.

I'd LOVE to know if he heard or knew the verse to "Till The
Clouds Roll By". Maybe someone knows this.


Mark

[Michael West]

Post by Mark Eisenman
I'd LOVE to know if he heard or knew the verse to "Till The
Clouds Roll By". Maybe someone knows this.

I'd say there's no reason to think he didn't know
Jerome Kern's works pretty thoroughly. We know he
was a voracious explorer of all sorts of things.

Whether he had it in mind when he started working
on the "Giant Steps" sequences is something else again.
Did he have Morton Gould in mind when he wrote
the line for "Impressions", or was it just there
lurking in the background without his being aware
of where it came from?

[Mark Eisenman]

Post by Michael West

Post by Mark Eisenman
I'd LOVE to know if he heard or knew the verse to "Till The
Clouds Roll By". Maybe someone knows this.

I'd say there's no reason to think he didn't know
Jerome Kern's works pretty thoroughly. We know he
was a voracious explorer of all sorts of things.

I wonder. Many jazz players would know the body of the tune (32 bars) and
never have an occasion to learn or play the verse. The verses are way more
obscure. Of course it wouldn't surprise me if Coltrane knew the verse, him
being such a studious musician, but one can hardly think of any tunes (other
than Lush Life, ) where he played the verse of the tune in advance of the
body of the tune.
Well, we'll probably never know.


Mark

Please visit
www.jazzpiano.ca

[Neat]

Post by Mark Eisenman

Post by Michael West

Post by Mark Eisenman
I'd LOVE to know if he heard or knew the verse to "Till The
Clouds Roll By". Maybe someone knows this.

I'd say there's no reason to think he didn't know
Jerome Kern's works pretty thoroughly. We know he
was a voracious explorer of all sorts of things.

I wonder. Many jazz players would know the body of the tune (32 bars) and
never have an occasion to learn or play the verse. The verses are way more
obscure. Of course it wouldn't surprise me if Coltrane knew the verse, him
being such a studious musician, but one can hardly think of any tunes (other
than Lush Life, ) where he played the verse of the tune in advance of the
body of the tune.
Well, we'll probably never know.
Mark
Please visit
www.jazzpiano.ca

Damn this an old ass conversation

[Michael West]

Post by Michael Fitzgerald
On Sun, 09 May 2004 13:27:05 GMT, "Michael West"

Post by Michael West
Just wondering whether anyone else has listened to
Bill Evans' "Displacement" on his 1956 album "New
Jazz Conceptions" and been blown away by the
foreshadowing of John Coltrane's "Giant Steps"
(1959).

It's interesting - there are indeed a number of similarities - the
repetitive harmonic rhythm, the 'melody' really being just the chord
voicings, the modulation through more distant keys, the ii-Vs at the> end

of the first half of the form.

Post by Michael Fitzgerald
I haven't transcribed it to look closely at it but I don't think it
addresses the main harmonic point of Giant Steps, the major third
relationships.

Thanks Mike. There is a transcription here:
http://www.lucaspickford.com/transdisplace.htm

You're right about the major thirds, but notice
the three-six-two-five cycle leading to two bars
of Ab ma7, followed by a parallel one leading to
Fma7. That really jumped out at me.

Other points: similar tempo and similar frequency
of shifting key centers (if that's the right term).

What it does not have, of course, is the distinctive
"color" of those alternating minor third/fourth series
in Giant Steps.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

On Tue, 11 May 2004 01:48:23 GMT, "Michael West"

Post by Michael West
You're right about the major thirds, but notice
the three-six-two-five cycle leading to two bars
of Ab ma7, followed by a parallel one leading to
Fma7. That really jumped out at me.
Other points: similar tempo and similar frequency
of shifting key centers (if that's the right term).

That's what I meant by harmonic rhythm.

Now with help of the transcription, it's clear to see that despite the
similarities mentioned (which are fairly superficial) we're not
dealing with Giant Steps, but rather, as someone else mentioned, with
more of a Moment's Notice approach - Displacement is 99% ii-V
sequences. Pieces like Giant Steps and Countdown are different.

Mike

***@eclipse.net
http://www.eclipse.net/~fitzgera - Gigi Gryce book - ARSC award winner!
http://www.JazzDiscography.com

[Michael West]

Post by Michael Fitzgerald
Now with help of the transcription, it's clear to see that despite the
similarities mentioned (which are fairly superficial)

They are, technically, but those parallel sequences
a minor third apart really grabbed me -- I'd been working
over "Giant Steps" recently, and when I put on the Evans
thing it stopped me in my tracks.

[Michael West]

Post by Michael Fitzgerald
Now with help of the transcription, it's clear to see that despite the
similarities mentioned (which are fairly superficial) we're not
dealing with Giant Steps, but rather, as someone else mentioned, with
more of a Moment's Notice approach - Displacement is 99% ii-V
sequences. Pieces like Giant Steps and Countdown are different.

I agree that G S is different in important ways --
especially, as someone mentioned, in splitting
the octave into three major thirds as a basic tonal
outline.

But with respect to the "99% ii-v" sequences, it

is worth pointing out that "trane changes" evolved,
at least in part, as an elaboration on ii-v sequences.

I find that these two sequences are not terribly far
apart in terms of jazz scales, for purposes of soloing:

1. Traditional changes
C | E7 A7 | D7 G7 | C

2. "Trane changes"
C Eb7 | Ab B7 | E G7 | C

[td]

Tatum, the night Horowitz brought in Rachmaninoff to the club. Since someone
has to mention it, KOB recording sessions. Finally, Clifford Brown in
Philadelphia 6/25/56 to provide a limo.

[The Squash Delivery Boy]

Post by td
Tatum, the night Horowitz brought in Rachmaninoff to the club. Since someone
has to mention it, KOB recording sessions. Finally, Clifford Brown in
Philadelphia 6/25/56 to provide a limo.

what? what are you talking about?

[Mark Eisenman]

Post by The Squash Delivery Boy

Post by td
Tatum, the night Horowitz brought in Rachmaninoff to the club. Since someone
has to mention it, KOB recording sessions. Finally, Clifford Brown in
Philadelphia 6/25/56 to provide a limo.

what? what are you talking about?

It looks like he's responding to the thread;
"If you could go back in time ..."

Mark