Discussion:
who are the ten most important figures in jazz?
(too old to reply)
babu delhin
2005-01-12 02:09:36 UTC
Permalink
who?
t***@guey.net
2005-01-12 02:35:08 UTC
Permalink
The question is to broad to answer, but here are some of my favs:

Miles Davis
Quincy Jones
Dave Brubeck

Right now I've been digging
Bill Cosby and Quincy Jones -The Original Jam Sessions 1969
who?
Coreyboy18
2005-01-12 02:39:55 UTC
Permalink
Louis Armstrong
austin noble
2005-01-12 02:56:16 UTC
Permalink
Mile Davis
Gil Evans
John Coltrane
Duke Ellington
Louis Armstrong
Herbie Hancock
Charlie Parker
Django Rhinehardt
Wynton Marsalis
MMW (as for this era in jazz) maybe not all time
Post by Coreyboy18
Louis Armstrong
C-line
2005-01-12 03:15:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by austin noble
Mile Davis
Gil Evans
John Coltrane
Duke Ellington
Louis Armstrong
Herbie Hancock
Charlie Parker
Django Rhinehardt
Wynton Marsalis
MMW (as for this era in jazz) maybe not all time
Post by Coreyboy18
Louis Armstrong
I totally agree with this list...however...the feminist in me is begging
for a woman to be on that list...AND...I do think her voice was
essential in the outcome of jazz:

Ella Fitzgerald.
Steve Cooper
2005-01-12 12:15:30 UTC
Permalink
Good choice. Ella was in a class by herself.
Post by C-line
Post by austin noble
Mile Davis
Gil Evans
John Coltrane
Duke Ellington
Louis Armstrong
Herbie Hancock
Charlie Parker
Django Rhinehardt
Wynton Marsalis
MMW (as for this era in jazz) maybe not all time
Post by Coreyboy18
Louis Armstrong
I totally agree with this list...however...the feminist in me is begging
for a woman to be on that list...AND...I do think her voice was essential
Ella Fitzgerald.
Canarsie
2005-01-12 17:21:47 UTC
Permalink
Over Billie Holiday?
j***@msn.com
2005-01-13 04:18:37 UTC
Permalink
Ella over Billie? Judging them by "jazz" standards, sure.

Joseph Scott
Alan David Mills
2005-01-13 16:03:01 UTC
Permalink
Everybody seems to have forgotten Toejam Jawallaby
--
Alan Mills (in Devon, England)
hutchtoo
2005-01-12 03:11:50 UTC
Permalink
The most 'important' ones aren't necessarily our favorites, but there is
some crossover like
Bill Evans
Dave Brubeck
John Coltrane
Miles Davis
Post by t***@guey.net
Miles Davis
Quincy Jones
Dave Brubeck
Right now I've been digging
Bill Cosby and Quincy Jones -The Original Jam Sessions 1969
who?
Allen
2005-01-12 17:06:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@guey.net
Miles Davis
Quincy Jones
Dave Brubeck
Right now I've been digging
Bill Cosby and Quincy Jones -The Original Jam Sessions 1969
who?
I would think that eight is probably the most important figure in jazz.
Allen
Guy Berger
2005-01-13 01:44:55 UTC
Permalink
A silly but fun thread. Here's a list off the top of my head, restricting
it to musicians (and due largely to my ignorance about vocalists) guys that
were primarily instrumentalists:

Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Coleman Hawkins (the first major tenor saxophone stylist)
Count Basie
Charlie Parker
Dizzy Gillespie
Miles Davis
Charles Mingus
John Coltrane
Ornette Coleman

and I didn't even get a chance to stick in Lester Young, Thelonious Monk,
Sidney Bechet, Fats Waller, Art Tatum, Bill Evans, and others. Sorry.

How about a few that, while probably not deserving of a top 10 berth, would
be interesting choices for inclusion in such a list: Sun Ra, Wayne Shorter,
Jimmy Blanton

Guy
j***@msn.com
2005-01-12 03:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Jazz has such a vast history that the question's too broad for anyone
here to do all the computations, I'd think. But I think five of the
most influential jazz figures of the '20s-'40s were Louis Armstrong,
Dizzy Gillespie, Lester Young, Gil Evans, and Eddie Lang.

Joseph Scott
Alan Young
2005-01-12 03:11:40 UTC
Permalink
who?
It depends on your POV. Since I'm a pianist, I'm biased in favor of
contributions by pianists; hence

Ellington
Tatum
Monk
Evans

are indispensible, along with

Satchmo
Prez
Diz (because he introduced Latin Jazz)
Bird
Miles
Trane

... But ask a singer or drummer, you'd get a different list entirely.
And that's legitimate, because there's no reason to accept only 10
influences.
--
Alan

I've never approached the piano as a thing in itself, but as a gateway to
music....Technique [is] a feeling for the keyboard that will allow you to
transfer any emotional utterance into it.
--Bill Evans
GF Handel
2005-01-12 03:37:43 UTC
Permalink
In quasi-chronological order:

Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Lester Young
Coleman Hawkins
Charlie Parker
Dizzy Gillespie
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Charles Mingus
Thelonious Monk
Wynton Marsalis will reveal himself on this list in the future
w***@gmail.com
2005-01-12 03:43:09 UTC
Permalink
you're all missing one.
Charles Mingus.
Canarsie
2005-01-12 17:25:42 UTC
Permalink
When I think "important" I'm always thinking of "influential." Was
Mingus up there with the others on these lists in that way? In terms
of importance? Or just greatness? I love Mingus but did he really
bring a whole lot to the table that others, like Ellington, did not?
Jazzhead
2005-01-12 17:56:58 UTC
Permalink
When I think "important" I'm always thinking >of "influential." Was
Mingus up there with the others on these lists in >that way? In terms
of importance? Or just greatness? I love Mingus >but did he really
bring a whole lot to the table that others, like >Ellington, did not?
I think Mingus was highly influential, especially towards the more
abstract and free side of jazz. But even more so, he was hugely
influential as a composer and band leader for all of jazz.
Canarsie
2005-01-12 18:09:14 UTC
Permalink
This is a fun argument, because I love Mingus so much, but here I am
kind of disagreeing a little bit. As a bandleader and composer, he was
a huge talent. But I think so much of what did was influenced by
Ellingtong. I also don't really know if I agree about influencing
"free jazz." I can't think of a single recording that wasn't highly
composed, really. Or any recordings which don't adhere to standards
and limits in one way or another.

PLEASE note that I'm a huge lover of Mingus' work. Definitely not
trashing him in any way whatsoever.
Matthew Fields
2005-01-12 18:54:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Canarsie
This is a fun argument, because I love Mingus so much, but here I am
kind of disagreeing a little bit. As a bandleader and composer, he was
a huge talent. But I think so much of what did was influenced by
Ellingtong. I also don't really know if I agree about influencing
"free jazz." I can't think of a single recording that wasn't highly
composed, really. Or any recordings which don't adhere to standards
and limits in one way or another.
PLEASE note that I'm a huge lover of Mingus' work. Definitely not
trashing him in any way whatsoever.
I think it's interesting how much he was able to incorporate
fugal structures alla Bach into his charts. That wasn't a widespread
trend at the time he did it.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
j***@msn.com
2005-01-12 20:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Hi Matthew,

A thought to throw in the mix here. Listen to Gillespie's band playing
John Lewis's "Toccata For Trumpet" (Carnegie Hall 9/29/47) and George
Russell's arrangement of "Relaxing At Camarillo" (Cornell 10/18/47).
Then listen to everything Mingus had recorded as a leader before that
-- which was all either heavily influenced by Ellington/Strayhorn, even
down to his own Blanton/Pettiford playing style, or (more often) was
urban blues, jazz, or ballad singing aimed at fans of normal urban
blues, jazz or ballad singing of the period.

Joseph Scott
Greg M. Silverman
2005-01-12 23:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by Canarsie
This is a fun argument, because I love Mingus so much, but here I am
kind of disagreeing a little bit. As a bandleader and composer, he was
a huge talent. But I think so much of what did was influenced by
Ellingtong. I also don't really know if I agree about influencing
"free jazz." I can't think of a single recording that wasn't highly
composed, really. Or any recordings which don't adhere to standards
and limits in one way or another.
PLEASE note that I'm a huge lover of Mingus' work. Definitely not
trashing him in any way whatsoever.
I think it's interesting how much he was able to incorporate
fugal structures alla Bach into his charts. That wasn't a widespread
trend at the time he did it.
Gunther Schuller claims Mingus was the gretaest American composer, ever.

gms--
Jazzhead
2005-01-12 19:56:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Canarsie
I also don't really know if I agree about influencing
"free jazz." I can't think of a single recording that >wasn't highly
composed, really.
I think Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus contains many elements
of more abstract or free jazz. Take something like "All the Things
You Could Be by Now if Sigmund Freud's Wife Was Your Not." Now, there
are elements of composition in there, but the piece seems to be an
abstraction of the standard All the Things You Are. To me, there
seems to be a lot of free elements (not necessarily in terms of free
form) present on that album (I haven't listened to that album in a
while, but I do remember getting that impression when I heard it).

Mingus to me seems to be the bridge between the highly composed big
band material like Ellington and the post bop more experimental and
abstract material that you get in the mid/late 50s and 60s.
Guy Berger
2005-01-13 00:54:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Canarsie
This is a fun argument, because I love Mingus so much, but here I am
kind of disagreeing a little bit. As a bandleader and composer, he was
a huge talent. But I think so much of what did was influenced by
Ellingtong. I also don't really know if I agree about influencing
"free jazz." I can't think of a single recording that wasn't highly
composed, really. Or any recordings which don't adhere to standards
and limits in one way or another.
I think a tune like "Bird Calls" (off Ah Um) anticipates what most
people would call "free jazz". What about the intro to "A Foggy Day"
(Pithecanthropus Erectus)? Some of these might have been composed (though
Mingus did involve a lot of improvisation in his music), but they really do
sound like some of the stuff that would exist in jazz with increasing
frequency after, say, 1959.

Guy
martyman
2005-01-12 03:37:50 UTC
Permalink
Miles Davis
John Coltraine
Dave Brubeck
Thelonious Monk
Chet Baker
Roland Kirk
Charlie Parker
Charlie Mingus
Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
who?
Yardbird O'Rooney
2005-01-12 04:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Who are the ten most important figures in jazz?

Important to whom? Important to the music itself?
Or important to me personally?

--
YO
The Big D
2005-01-12 05:52:04 UTC
Permalink
i'm surprise Stan Getz hasn't been on anyone's lists
--
"i just want you two knuckles deep in my dirtstar yo" - wayne

kip winger rulz (10:10:07 AM): only time ive came close is when i was taking
off a condom and it flung shit in her eye
who?
Steve H
2005-01-12 06:09:00 UTC
Permalink
who?
The standard 5 are usually:
Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Charlie Parker
Miles Davis
John Coltrane

With 5 left to go I would also add:
Coleman Hawkins/Lester Young (it is hard to decide)
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Thelonious Monk
Art Blakey

Steve
The Big D
2005-01-12 06:38:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Coreyboy18
Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Charlie Parker
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
even though it might be an exception to the rule... i think Django belongs
there

i don't think you can make a top 5 jazz artists lists.... to me, i should be
top 6
--
"i just want you two knuckles deep in my dirtstar yo" - wayne

kip winger rulz (10:10:07 AM): only time ive came close is when i was taking
off a condom and it flung shit in her eye
Post by Coreyboy18
who?
Coleman Hawkins/Lester Young (it is hard to decide)
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Thelonious Monk
Art Blakey
Steve
Yardbird O'Rooney
2005-01-12 13:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Big D
Post by Coreyboy18
Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Charlie Parker
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
even though it might be an exception to the rule... i think Django belongs
there
Only if you need the list to be politically
correct for guitarists and/or Belgians.
Even so, I would put I would put
Charlie Christian ahead of Django,
and Bechet ahead of either.
j***@msn.com
2005-01-12 16:28:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Yardbird,

With Bechet we get into the matter of influencing the course of jazz
(very little, it seems) vs. sheer quality of his own work (massive, in
my subjective opinion).

Joseph Scott
Yardbird O'Rooney
2005-01-12 20:37:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@msn.com
Hi Yardbird,
With Bechet we get into the matter of influencing the course of jazz
(very little, it seems) ... [snip]
You might want to check with John Coltrane about that
when you see him.
--
YO
j***@msn.com
2005-01-13 01:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Yardbird,

How would you say Bechet did (and didn't) influence Coltrane?
Joseph Scott
n***@aol.com
2005-01-12 07:37:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Coreyboy18
who?
Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Charlie Parker
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Without a doubt.
Post by Coreyboy18
Coleman Hawkins/Lester Young (it is hard to decide)
Hawkins gets the slight edge for putting the tenor sax on the map in a
big way.
Post by Coreyboy18
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Top 20 or 30 maybe, but not top ten. He didn't invent a major genre or
influence other bassists like, say, Oscar Pettiford did.
Post by Coreyboy18
Thelonious Monk
Art Blakey
Much as I love Blakey, same criticsm as Mingus.

I'll substitute Art Tatum and ... for changing the way an instrument is
played more than anyone else since Bird ... Michael Brecker.
Kevin
2005-01-12 13:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by j***@msn.com
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Top 20 or 30 maybe, but not top ten. He didn't invent a major genre or
influence other bassists like, say, Oscar Pettiford did.
What about compositionally speaking?!!!! Or are you simply limiting it
to his proficiency on the bass? His writing should assyre him a spot in
the top ten.
Steve H
2005-01-12 16:53:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by j***@msn.com
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Top 20 or 30 maybe, but not top ten. He didn't invent a major genre
or
Post by n***@aol.com
influence other bassists like, say, Oscar Pettiford did.
What about compositionally speaking?!!!! Or are you simply limiting it
to his proficiency on the bass? His writing should assyre him a spot in
the top ten.
Mingus was much more than just a bassist. His contributions as a
composer, arranger and band leader were significant. While Diz was one
of the primary architects of Bebop, his contributions after Bebop
continue to be significant.
n***@aol.com
2005-01-12 23:11:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by j***@msn.com
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Top 20 or 30 maybe, but not top ten. He didn't invent a major genre
or
Post by n***@aol.com
influence other bassists like, say, Oscar Pettiford did.
What about compositionally speaking?!!!! Or are you simply limiting it
to his proficiency on the bass? His writing should assyre him a spot in
the top ten.
Outside of maybe "Goodbye Porkpie Hat," how many of Mingus'songs are in
the top echelon of jazz standards? Not many. How often have you heard
bass players say they're woodshedding on Mingus solos? Not often. Which
Mingus albums stand up there on the same level as "King of Blue" or
"Giant Steps"? None.
Like I said, a major figure to be sure. Not Top 10, though.
Kevin
2005-01-13 04:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by Kevin
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by j***@msn.com
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Top 20 or 30 maybe, but not top ten. He didn't invent a major genre
or
Post by n***@aol.com
influence other bassists like, say, Oscar Pettiford did.
What about compositionally speaking?!!!! Or are you simply limiting
it
Post by Kevin
to his proficiency on the bass? His writing should assyre him a
spot
Post by n***@aol.com
in
Post by Kevin
the top ten.
Outside of maybe "Goodbye Porkpie Hat," how many of Mingus'songs are in
the top echelon of jazz standards? Not many. How often have you heard
bass players say they're woodshedding on Mingus solos? Not often. Which
Mingus albums stand up there on the same level as "King of Blue" or
"Giant Steps"? None.
Like I said, a major figure to be sure. Not Top 10, though.
I completely disagree. I hear Mingus' unique compositional influence
throughout avant garde jazz, from Hemphill to Threadgill right on down
to guys like Osby. "Mingus Ah Um" and "The Black Saint and the Sinner
Lady" are upper echelon jazz recordings.

Ellington, Monk, and Mingus are three of the greatest composers of the
twentieth century. Mingus may not be top five but he's top ten material
for sure.

As for the bass, both Dave Holland and Stanley Clarke credit Mingus as
a major influence.
JC Martin
2005-01-13 07:19:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by Kevin
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by j***@msn.com
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Top 20 or 30 maybe, but not top ten. He didn't invent a major genre
or
Post by n***@aol.com
influence other bassists like, say, Oscar Pettiford did.
What about compositionally speaking?!!!! Or are you simply limiting
it
Post by Kevin
to his proficiency on the bass? His writing should assyre him a spot
in
Post by Kevin
the top ten.
Outside of maybe "Goodbye Porkpie Hat," how many of Mingus'songs are in
the top echelon of jazz standards? Not many. How often have you heard
bass players say they're woodshedding on Mingus solos? Not often.
Cite your evidence.
Post by n***@aol.com
Which
Mingus albums stand up there on the same level as "King of Blue" or
"Giant Steps"?
You've got to be kidding. You've heard how many Mingus records?
Post by n***@aol.com
None.
Like I said, a major figure to be sure. Not Top 10, though.
Yawn.

-JC
Gerry
2005-01-14 02:46:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by JC Martin
Post by n***@aol.com
Outside of maybe "Goodbye Porkpie Hat," how many of Mingus'songs
are in the top echelon of jazz standards? Not many. How often have
you heard bass players say they're woodshedding on Mingus solos?
Not often.
Cite your evidence.
Absolutely! Name every bass player who's never woodshedded with Mingus!
Post by JC Martin
Post by n***@aol.com
Which Mingus albums stand up there on the same level as "King of
Blue" or "Giant Steps"?
Which dates lead by Jimmy Blanton, Oscar Pettiford, or Scott La Faro
rival those two--admittedly some of the highpoints of the 20th century.
Maybe a bassist, as an influential figure, shouldn't be limited to the
dates he lead. Most of the bassists I hung with in the 70's listened
plenty to Mingus, on his own dates and others, trying to glean what
they could.

And you know I think it's illuminating that "woodshedding on a solo"
would be the way someone would consider study of Mingus useful. Or any
bassist's solos, for that matter.
Post by JC Martin
You've got to be kidding. You've heard how many Mingus records?
Post by n***@aol.com
None. Like I said, a major figure to be sure. Not Top 10, though.
Yawn.
--
We juggle till we drop. -- The Flying Karamazov Brothers
n***@aol.com
2005-01-14 06:09:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerry
Post by JC Martin
Post by n***@aol.com
Outside of maybe "Goodbye Porkpie Hat," how many of Mingus'songs
are in the top echelon of jazz standards? Not many. How often have
you heard bass players say they're woodshedding on Mingus solos?
Not often.
Cite your evidence.
Absolutely! Name every bass player who's never woodshedded with Mingus!
I can't tell if you're trying to make fun of me or JC here.
Post by Gerry
Post by JC Martin
Post by n***@aol.com
Which Mingus albums stand up there on the same level as "King of
Blue" or "Giant Steps"?
Which dates lead by Jimmy Blanton, Oscar Pettiford, or Scott La Faro
rival those two
None. I wouldn't put them in the Top 10 list, either.
Post by Gerry
--admittedly some of the highpoints of the 20th century.
Maybe a bassist, as an influential figure, shouldn't be limited to the
dates he lead.
I never said Mingus wasn't influential. Just not Top 10 material.
Post by Gerry
Most of the bassists I hung with in the 70's listened
plenty to Mingus, on his own dates and others, trying to glean what
they could.
Undoubtedly. I'm sure he's an important figure for bassists. But we're
talking about Top 10 for *overall* jazz, which in my mind has a much
higher standard than just being one of the major figures on one's
instrument.
Post by Gerry
And you know I think it's illuminating that "woodshedding on a solo"
would be the way someone would consider study of Mingus useful.
Not "the" way -- just one way. I don't know about you, but I've heard a
lot of bass solos, and presumably the players have looked to someone
for study and emulation. If Mingus had raised the bar exponentially on
his instrument and was so compelling that he affected *all* jazz
instrumentalists, like, say, Tatum, Bird, or Trane did, then maybe I'd
put him in the Top 10. But it's unlikely any bass player would have
that effect, due to the supportive role of the instrument.
Guy Berger
2005-01-13 00:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by j***@msn.com
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Top 20 or 30 maybe, but not top ten. He didn't invent a major genre
or
Post by n***@aol.com
influence other bassists like, say, Oscar Pettiford did.
What about compositionally speaking?!!!! Or are you simply limiting it
to his proficiency on the bass? His writing should assyre him a spot in
the top ten.
I think the "didn't influence other bassists" claim is pretty dubious.
Dave Holland comes to mind right off the bat. Chris Wood. Maybe bassists
can chime in here with other examples.

Mingus's compositions are pretty significant. I also think some of his
works from the mid-late 50s anticipate trends that would appear a few years
later in avant-garde jazz -- particularly the use of collective
improvisation, sections with static harmony, and complex forms.

Guy

np Beethoven, String Quartet Op. 127
n***@aol.com
2005-01-14 06:54:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Berger
Post by Kevin
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by j***@msn.com
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Top 20 or 30 maybe, but not top ten. He didn't invent a major genre
or
Post by n***@aol.com
influence other bassists like, say, Oscar Pettiford did.
What about compositionally speaking?!!!! Or are you simply limiting it
to his proficiency on the bass? His writing should assyre him a spot in
the top ten.
I think the "didn't influence other bassists" claim is pretty dubious.
Dave Holland comes to mind right off the bat. Chris Wood. Maybe bassists
can chime in here with other examples.
I didn't say he "didn't influence other bassists," just not as much
perhaps as some other players. And just being an influence on one's
instrument, to me, does not put one in the Top 10. Dexter Gordon
influenced Trane and Sonny Rollins -- you can't ask for more prominent
"students" than that. But I wouldn't put him in the Top 10, either.
Post by Guy Berger
Mingus's compositions are pretty significant.
I'm not quite sure how. I've participated in a lot of jam sessions and
have played plenty of tunes by Bird, Diz, Monk, H. Hancock, H. Silver,
C. Corea, W. Shorter, Trane, et al., not to mention all the usual show
tune and movie theme standards like "The Way You Look Tonight,"
"Cherokee," "Summertime." I don't remember ever playing a Mingus tune.

I also think some of his
Post by Guy Berger
works from the mid-late 50s anticipate trends that would appear a few years
later in avant-garde jazz -- particularly the use of collective
improvisation, sections with static harmony, and complex forms.
Guy
You're probably right. But I'm a little surprised that the avant-garde
conscious here seem to think that, as far as the Top 10 goes, Mingus is
a more deserving figure than Ornette Coleman.
j***@msn.com
2005-01-12 16:31:05 UTC
Permalink
If you're gonna put Pettiford on a list, make sure Blanton is on it
first.

Joseph Scott
n***@aol.com
2005-01-12 23:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@msn.com
If you're gonna put Pettiford on a list, make sure Blanton is on it
first.
Joseph Scott
I wouldn't put either on an overall Top 10 list. They would certainly
be in a Top 10 (or 5) of bass players, though.
Steve H
2005-01-12 17:01:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by Coreyboy18
who?
Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Charlie Parker
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Without a doubt.
Post by Coreyboy18
Coleman Hawkins/Lester Young (it is hard to decide)
Hawkins gets the slight edge for putting the tenor sax on the map in a
big way.
Post by Coreyboy18
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Top 20 or 30 maybe, but not top ten. He didn't invent a major genre or
influence other bassists like, say, Oscar Pettiford did.
Post by Coreyboy18
Thelonious Monk
Art Blakey
Much as I love Blakey, same criticsm as Mingus.
I'll substitute Art Tatum and ... for changing the way an instrument is
played more than anyone else since Bird ... Michael Brecker.
Mingus was much more than just a bassist. His contributions as a
composer, arranger and band leader were significant. While Diz was one
of the primary architects of Bebop, his contributions after Bebop
continue to be significant. Blakey was one of the primary architects of
Hardbop and many emerging players (Hubbard, Morgan, Mobley, Shorter, and
even Marsalis) came through the Jazz Messengers and now in the early
2000's the Hardbop influence is still strong.
n***@aol.com
2005-01-12 23:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Steve H wrote:

Blakey was one of the primary architects of
Post by Steve H
Hardbop and many emerging players (Hubbard, Morgan, Mobley, Shorter, and
even Marsalis) came through the Jazz Messengers and now in the early
2000's the Hardbop influence is still strong.
Blakey would be in my personal Top 10; I saw the Jazz Messengers
numerous times and always enjoyed them. But Blakey:

-- was not a composer;
-- was there at the start of bop, but generally isn't credited with
helping to "invent" it like Mike Roach or Kenny Clarke. I don't
consider "hard bop" much of an innovative departure from regular old
bop.
-- delegated the musical direction of the band to a musical director;
-- indeed, had some phenomenal players throughout the years. He also
had some lesser lights (how much are people still talking about Carter
Jefferson, Valeri Ponamarov, or Jean Toussaint)? I suspect Blakey just
took the best of whoever auditioned for him, and some later turned out
to be superstars.
All of which to say, a legendary jazzman surely, but not Top 10.
j***@msn.com
2005-01-13 01:20:54 UTC
Permalink
I think Blakey deserves credit for helping quite a lot to invent the
way modern jazz drumming generally sounded during the mid-'40s despite
the fact that he was an admirer of Kenny Clarke in turn. I would think
that many '40s drummers along the lines of Stan Levey, Roy Haynes, Roy
Porter, Jackie Mills, and Don Lamond would have been aware of and been
excited by Blakey's playing, even before Monk's late '47 recordings.
Joseph Scott
n***@aol.com
2005-01-14 06:40:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@msn.com
I think Blakey deserves credit for helping quite a lot to invent the
way modern jazz drumming generally sounded during the mid-'40s
despite
Post by j***@msn.com
the fact that he was an admirer of Kenny Clarke in turn. I would think
that many '40s drummers along the lines of Stan Levey, Roy Haynes, Roy
Porter, Jackie Mills, and Don Lamond would have been aware of and been
excited by Blakey's playing, even before Monk's late '47 recordings.
Joseph Scott
I'm sure you're right, Joseph. To me, though, for someone to be in the
Top 10 as an instrumentalist, he has to have not only been *the*
towering figure of his time on his instrument, but also have affected
*all* jazz players in some significant way, as Bird and Trane did. I
don't think Blakey meets this standard, but I'm happy to put him on the
list just based on personal bias. ;-)
foggytown
2005-01-14 00:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Look how far we've gotten here and nobody thinks to mention Les Paul &
Mary Ford. No, I'm serious . . . sort of.

In the 50s they offered watered down "jazzy" arrangements of standard
songs on their steroidal and over-amped guitars to a "square" audience
who would have run a mile from Gillespie or even Kenton . . . certainly
from Sonny Stitt's intentional clinkers. But some of these squares
used Paul & Ford's chirpy plucky mush as a bridge to more legitimate
jazz sounds.

Oh, and Joe Venuti's violin as well.

FoggyTown
Curtis Plumb
2005-01-14 01:56:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by foggytown
Look how far we've gotten here and nobody thinks to mention Les Paul &
Mary Ford. No, I'm serious . . . sort of.
In the 50s they offered watered down "jazzy" arrangements of standard
songs on their steroidal and over-amped guitars to a "square" audience
who would have run a mile from Gillespie or even Kenton . . . certainly
from Sonny Stitt's intentional clinkers. But some of these squares
used Paul & Ford's chirpy plucky mush as a bridge to more legitimate
jazz sounds.
Oh, and Joe Venuti's violin as well.
FoggyTown
My route to jazz began with Les Paul's guitar artistry
in those early '50s hits as I was stumbling through
adolescence. "Bye Bye Blues" 10' lp was my favorite.
Phil Wilson
2005-01-14 08:56:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by foggytown
Look how far we've gotten here and nobody thinks to mention Les Paul &
Mary Ford. No, I'm serious . . . sort of.
In the 50s they offered watered down "jazzy" arrangements of
standard
songs on their steroidal and over-amped guitars to a "square"
audience
who would have run a mile from Gillespie or even Kenton . . .
certainly from Sonny Stitt's intentional clinkers. But some of
these
squares used Paul & Ford's chirpy plucky mush as a bridge to more
legitimate jazz sounds.
'Jazz' for people who don't like Jazz. What on earth is the point?

Cheers,

Phil
foggytown
2005-01-14 11:59:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Wilson
'Jazz' for people who don't like Jazz. What on earth is the point?
You obviously missed it, Phil.

FoggyTown
Phil Wilson
2005-01-14 12:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by foggytown
Post by Phil Wilson
'Jazz' for people who don't like Jazz. What on earth is the point?
You obviously missed it, Phil.
If you're claiming that pop is a bridge over which those who are
ignorant about a particular type of music can cross over to reach the
promised land of quality or style, then I'll say that most people who
assume this can happen over-estimate the frequency with which it does.

What mainly happens is that a sub-market of cross-over is established
that is representative of neither type of music in its fullness. They
are always trying to do this with classical in the UK. What they end
up with is a misrepresentation of the music, whose aficionados have to
be tickled with irrelevant social associations (such as 'lifestyle' or
bogus 'psychology') to make it appealing. Hence the popularity of
'excerpts', 'highlights' and so on. And who cares how many people like
Jazz anyway?

Cheers,

Phil
Nightingale
2005-01-14 14:49:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Wilson
And who cares how many people like
Jazz anyway?
The marketing & accounting departments at the record companies.
--
Blessed Cecilia, appear in visions
To all musicians, appear and inspire:
Translated Daughter, come down and startle
Composing mortals with immortal fire.
zoot
2005-01-12 18:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by Coreyboy18
who?
Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Charlie Parker
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Without a doubt.
Post by Coreyboy18
Coleman Hawkins/Lester Young (it is hard to decide)
Hawkins gets the slight edge for putting the tenor sax on the map in a
big way.
Post by Coreyboy18
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Top 20 or 30 maybe, but not top ten. He didn't invent a major genre or
influence other bassists like, say, Oscar Pettiford did.
Post by Coreyboy18
Thelonious Monk
Art Blakey
Much as I love Blakey, same criticsm as Mingus.
I'll substitute Art Tatum and ... for changing the way an instrument is
played more than anyone else since Bird ... Michael Brecker.
not ornett? how bout loid, dolfe, rassan, cannonball, ben webster,
henderson, shep, osby?
n***@aol.com
2005-01-12 23:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by zoot
not ornett? how bout loid, dolfe, rassan, cannonball, ben webster,
henderson, shep, osby?
Even though I don't particularly care for him or his music, Ornette
probably belongs on the list.

Most of the rest of your suggestions aren't even close to Top 10,
though some of them are terrific players.
zoot
2005-01-13 05:47:42 UTC
Permalink
first . this is my list of people that changed the sound of the sax
more than brecker did. i'm not saying he's not good.
second. i don't think anyone is important to jazz. i think jazz is
important to some people. like me.
and third. lists of people who influenced jazz come up often here and
it seems that 10 can't cover it
n***@aol.com
2005-01-14 06:17:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by zoot
first . this is my list of people that changed the sound of the sax
more than brecker did.
That's fine -- you're entitled. It wasn't clear from your post, though.

i'm not saying he's not good.
Post by zoot
second. i don't think anyone is important to jazz. i think jazz is
important to some people. like me.
and third.
lists of people who influenced jazz come up often here and
Post by zoot
it seems that 10 can't cover it
That's part of the fun, though. We can all easily come up with 100
names or more of people who influenced jazz. Trying to boil it down to
the Ten 10 most deserving requires real thought.
Nate Smith
2005-01-14 06:32:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by zoot
it seems that 10 can't cover it
That's part of the fun, though. We can all easily come up with 100
names or more of people who influenced jazz. Trying to boil it down to
the Ten 10 most deserving requires real thought.
i'd like to advance the idea, here, that a certain
mister ludvig von beethoven did so much to free
the world of the beautiful, rapturous prison we
had all fallen into back then by the insidiously
natural/mathematical/obvious wonders created by
that bad boy, mister wolfgang amadeus mozart.


- nate
"...jazz has been with us since the beginning...."
Adam Bravo
2005-01-14 06:05:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by Coreyboy18
who?
Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Charlie Parker
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Without a doubt.
Post by Coreyboy18
Coleman Hawkins/Lester Young (it is hard to decide)
Hawkins gets the slight edge for putting the tenor sax on the map in a
big way.
But Young of course being one of the architects of a genre as much or more
as Hawkins; dunno, could go either way though my hunch is Young.
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by Coreyboy18
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Top 20 or 30 maybe, but not top ten. He didn't invent a major genre or
influence other bassists like, say, Oscar Pettiford did.
???? For one thing, I think we're thinking of Mingus' compositional ideas.
But his bass playing really brought bass to the forefront as a solo
instrument. Oscar Pettiford I don't think is nearly as influential.
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by Coreyboy18
Thelonious Monk
Art Blakey
Much as I love Blakey, same criticsm as Mingus.
I'll substitute Art Tatum and ... for changing the way an instrument is
played more than anyone else since Bird ... Michael Brecker.
Um, Trane?
n***@aol.com
2005-01-14 06:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Bravo
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by Coreyboy18
who?
Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Charlie Parker
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Without a doubt.
Post by Coreyboy18
Coleman Hawkins/Lester Young (it is hard to decide)
Hawkins gets the slight edge for putting the tenor sax on the map in a
big way.
But Young of course being one of the architects of a genre as much or more
as Hawkins; dunno, could go either way though my hunch is Young.
I agree, it's a tough call. Strong arguments either way.
Post by Adam Bravo
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by Coreyboy18
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Top 20 or 30 maybe, but not top ten. He didn't invent a major genre or
influence other bassists like, say, Oscar Pettiford did.
???? For one thing, I think we're thinking of Mingus' compositional ideas.
I think there are other composers whose songs are much better known (in
jazz, and in some cases, outside of it) than Mingus.
Post by Adam Bravo
But his bass playing really brought bass to the forefront as a solo
instrument. Oscar Pettiford I don't think is nearly as influential.
Post by n***@aol.com
Post by Coreyboy18
Thelonious Monk
Art Blakey
Much as I love Blakey, same criticsm as Mingus.
I'll substitute Art Tatum and ... for changing the way an
instrument is
Post by Adam Bravo
Post by n***@aol.com
played more than anyone else since Bird ... Michael Brecker.
Um, Trane?
I was waiting for someone to point that out -- thanks! Yes, of course
Trane belongs at the top of that list, and Brecker owes a huge debt to
him. But Brecker's influence has been so compelling that just about
every tenor player who has come along since sounds at least somewhat,
if not tremendously, like him. That's about a thiry-year record that,
in some respects, is incomparable.
j***@msn.com
2005-01-12 16:25:10 UTC
Permalink
Regarding "the standard 5," vs. adding another 5, there is no question
in my mind that Dizzy Gillespie influenced the course of jazz far more
than Duke Ellington did. Duke has been appreciated for a lot of right
reasons, but for a lot of wrong reasons too.

Joseph Scott
Yardbird O'Rooney
2005-01-12 21:14:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@msn.com
Regarding "the standard 5," vs. adding another 5, there is no question
in my mind that Dizzy Gillespie influenced the course of jazz far more
than Duke Ellington did.
This is, I realize, a subjective appraisal, but
I doubt that many of the great jazz players
would agree with the statement above.
--
YO
j***@msn.com
2005-01-13 01:07:11 UTC
Permalink
Yardbird, feel free to quote great jazz players on that -- Duke was
certainly a popular man with them.

Dizzy did more than anyone else to invent and popularize bop, and he
did more than anyone else to invent and popularize Latin jazz, and the
whole idea he had there that foreign folk music could be integrated
with jazz and that still be accepted as "jazz" was a paradigm shift
that led to countless further fusions such as Coltrane's.

Ellington made very good symphonic jazz, particularly when Strayhorn
was around. He didn't originate symphonic jazz (and didn't think he
did). Much of his appeal to other jazz musicians imo was as a personal
role model. Very influential musically, but clearly less so than
Armstrong or Gillespie imo.

Joseph Scott
Yardbird O'Rooney
2005-01-13 08:56:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@msn.com
Yardbird, feel free to quote great jazz players on that -- Duke was
certainly a popular man with them.
Dizzy did more than anyone else to invent and popularize bop, and he
did more than anyone else to invent and popularize Latin jazz,
He certainly worked at injecting Afro-Cuban
jazz into the New York scene. But I don't think of
that as a terribly significant genre historically
(though I love listening to it). Latin American
influences were present in jazz from the beginning.
Ferd Morton talked about it; he didn't start it.
Post by j***@msn.com
and the
whole idea he had there that foreign folk music could be integrated
with jazz and that still be accepted as "jazz" was a paradigm shift
that led to countless further fusions such as Coltrane's.
Hmm. I thought jazz was itself, from the beginning,
an amalgam of "foreign folk music".
Post by j***@msn.com
Ellington made very good symphonic jazz, particularly when Strayhorn
was around.
I don't know much about this. I'm not even sure what
you're referring to. I'm thinking of good old Ellington-
Strayhorn swing tunes and ballads that everybody's
grandma knows. My grandma would have run screaming
from the room if I put "Tunisia" on the turntable. But
If I put on the classic "A Train" or Don't Get Around Much"
she closed her eyes and smiled. I was too polite to ask
her what she was remembering.

--
YO
Gary Hogan
2005-01-13 16:19:19 UTC
Permalink
Gary Hogan
Duke
Miles
John C.
Louis
Chick Webb
Brubeck/ Desmond
Monk
Bix
Mingus
Bird
Melodious Thunk
2005-01-13 17:33:17 UTC
Permalink
Interesting thread. I liked the observation that many non-players deserve inclusion (Gantz,
Hentoff, Feather et al); howzabout someone like Baroness Pannonica? Or some of the club
owners/managers (H. Ramsey, S. Hill)?

I liked the observation about Dave Brubeck being a "gateway to jazz"; howzabout Chuck Mangione
and Kenny G. (Kenny G.'s probably outsold most everyone).

& finally the observation about some players being most notable as bandleaders, for the
opportunities they provided and the styles they participated in crafting. Howzabout Stan Kenton,
or Lionel Hampton, Maynard Fergusen, or even Don Ellis?

There's an awful lot of competition for a mere ten slots!
Adam Bravo
2005-01-14 06:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@msn.com
Yardbird, feel free to quote great jazz players on that -- Duke was
certainly a popular man with them.
Dizzy did more than anyone else to invent and popularize bop, and he
did more than anyone else to invent and popularize Latin jazz, and the
whole idea he had there that foreign folk music could be integrated
with jazz and that still be accepted as "jazz" was a paradigm shift
that led to countless further fusions such as Coltrane's.
Ellington made very good symphonic jazz, particularly when Strayhorn
was around. He didn't originate symphonic jazz (and didn't think he
did). Much of his appeal to other jazz musicians imo was as a personal
role model. Very influential musically, but clearly less so than
Armstrong or Gillespie imo.
The big thing with Ellington, to me, is his ability to be regarded very
highly by legit musicians and critics (I'm guessing for primarily structural
reasons). I mean, any time a symphony or some such wants to show off how
open-minded they are and credit a "great American composer" out of the legit
realm, it's ALWAYS Duke Ellington. And the greater acceptance of jazz as
serious music I think was quite important in broadening its dissemination
(and appeal).
BlackMonk
2005-01-14 01:53:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Coreyboy18
who?
Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Charlie Parker
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Coleman Hawkins/Lester Young (it is hard to decide)
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Thelonious Monk
Art Blakey
No Ornette?
Adam Bravo
2005-01-14 06:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Coreyboy18
who?
Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Charlie Parker
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Coleman Hawkins/Lester Young (it is hard to decide)
Dizzy Gillespie
Charles Mingus
Thelonious Monk
Art Blakey
I like this list - maybe I'd put it Hawk and Young and unfortunately be
forced to oust Blakey.
ric
2005-01-12 06:43:23 UTC
Permalink
who?
Oh, goody. Another multi-crossposted troll post. Filters _ON_.
n***@grandecom.net
2005-01-12 07:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Louis Armstrong
Billie Holiday
Ella Fitzgerald
Duke Ellington
Count Basie
Charlie Parker
Thelonious Monk
Sarah Vaughan
Miles Davis
John Coltrane

If you gave me a few more I'd include:
Coleman Hawkins
Lester Young
Charles Mingus
Fats Waller
Ornette Coleman
n***@grandecom.net
2005-01-12 07:04:45 UTC
Permalink
Louis Armstrong
Billie Holiday
Ella Fitzgerald
Duke Ellington
Count Basie
Charlie Parker
Thelonious Monk
Sarah Vaughan
Miles Davis
John Coltrane

If you gave me a few more I'd include:
Coleman Hawkins
Lester Young
Charles Mingus
Fats Waller
Ornette Coleman
g***@aol.com
2005-01-12 07:29:14 UTC
Permalink
Contgroversial in some cases but..

Sammy Kaye
Paul Whiteman
Lawrence Welk
Kenny G
Glenn Miller
Guy Lombardo
Dave Brubeck
Martin Denny
VIncer Guardlli(spelling?)
Horst Jankoswki
Louis Armstrong
Jimmy DUrante
Al Jolson
Ted lewis
Judy Garland
Cliff Edswarsds
Maerion Harris
Marion HButton
Bewtty Grable
HarryJjames
Andrews Sisters
Boswell Sisters
Duke Ellington
Tommy Dorsey
Jikmmy Dorsey (together and separete!)
'Artie Shaw
Benny Goodman
Rudy Vallee
Bing Crosby
Paul Desmond (including his long stint with Brubeck,as wrtiter and lead
musician on Brubeck's 1959 hit TAKE FIVE)
Cozy Cole
Count Basie
Fats Waller
Kay Kyser
Yardbird O'Rooney
2005-01-12 13:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@aol.com
Contgroversial in some cases but..
You gotta be pulling my leg ... right?
Post by g***@aol.com
Sammy Kaye
Paul Whiteman
Lawrence Welk
Kenny G
Glenn Miller
Guy Lombardo
Dave Brubeck
Martin Denny
VIncer Guardlli(spelling?)
Horst Jankoswki
Louis Armstrong
Jimmy DUrante
Al Jolson
Ted lewis
Judy Garland
Cliff Edswarsds
Maerion Harris
Marion HButton
Bewtty Grable
HarryJjames
Andrews Sisters
Boswell Sisters
Duke Ellington
Tommy Dorsey
Jikmmy Dorsey (together and separete!)
'Artie Shaw
Benny Goodman
Rudy Vallee
Bing Crosby
Paul Desmond (including his long stint with Brubeck,as wrtiter and lead
musician on Brubeck's 1959 hit TAKE FIVE)
Cozy Cole
Count Basie
Fats Waller
Kay Kyser
j***@msn.com
2005-01-12 16:37:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi Carras,

I think some of the people on your list weren't even _trying_ to make
"jazz" -- Sammy Kaye and Lawrence Welk, for instance. But I agree with
you that Ted Lewis made lots of jazz, for instance.
Best wishes,

Joseph Scott
Gerry
2005-01-14 02:26:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@msn.com
I think some of the people on your list weren't even _trying_ to make
"jazz" -- Sammy Kaye and Lawrence Welk, for instance. But I agree with
you that Ted Lewis made lots of jazz, for instance.
Holy moly, just when I think you've scrambled my brains for the last
time you guys come up with some thing like this. Ted fucking Lewis?!?
Sheesh, we might as well add but George Burns, Huey Long or Betty
Grable on the damn list...

Wait a minute, somebody already added Betty Grable.
--
I can live for two months on a good compliment.
-- Mark Twain
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
2005-01-12 07:29:03 UTC
Permalink
who are the ten most important figures in jazz?
You are going to reach even less of a consensus in jazz than you will
to the similar question that you posted earlier about blues, but again
the ones that I most enjoy listening to are:

Cecil Taylor
Charles Mingus
Eric Dolphy
Frank Zappa
Herbie Hancock
John Coltrane
Miles Davis
Ornette Coleman
Roland Kirk
Sun Ra

====
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
Current Release: Monongahela Riverrun
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc3
Yardbird O'Rooney
2005-01-12 10:28:59 UTC
Permalink
[Trimmed follow-up to r.m.b.]

Even when I list Basie-Young as one person
and Ellington-Strayhorn as another person and
Holiday-Wilson as another person, I * still * can't
get the list shorter than twenty-seven.

The list would have to include non-musicians,
by the way, if it is to mean anything: John
Hammond for one.

I think you need one list for the creators and
another list for the popularizers and promoters.
Neither would have survived without the other.
There wouldn't have been a Benny Goodman
from Chicago without a Johnny Dodds from New
Orleans, but without Goodman, Lionel Hampton,
Teddy Wilson, Charlie Christian, and perhaps even
Roy Eldrige might never have become the big names
that they so richly deserved to become. So, who
gets on the list -- Dodds or Goodman?

Charlie Parker or Jay McShann, who recognized an
amazing talent and gave the kid a break?

How about Teo Macero, who produced the
"Kind of Blue" sessions at great financial risk?
How about the man who signed Monk to Columbia
records (anybody remember his name?) If you think
it was "a sure thing" financially, you're dreaming.

It's a mug's game. "Ten" is far too small a number
to contain a world of infinite wonder. Who are
the ten most important people in * any * history?
Because nobody is born into a vacuum, and nobody
could have become who they were (except maybe the
Son of God, if you believe in such things) could have
achieved greatness without being able to stand on the
shoulders of giants, you can argue forever over it.

--
YO
Yardbird O'Rooney
2005-01-12 11:12:46 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, it was Irving Townsend, not Teo Macero,
who produced the original "Kind of Blue" sessions.
Macero produced other Miles sessions.

A whole new chapter needs to be written on
Townsend, Avakian, Macero at CBS; Weinstock
and Ira Gitler at Prestige; Alfred Lion at Bluenote,
and many others.

--
YO
Curtis Plumb
2005-01-12 16:51:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yardbird O'Rooney
The list would have to include non-musicians,
by the way, if it is to mean anything: John
Hammond for one.
Norman Granz, for another.
j***@msn.com
2005-01-12 17:15:05 UTC
Permalink
"Even when I list Basie-Young as one person and Ellington-Strayhorn as
another person and Holiday-Wilson as another person, I * still * can't
get the list shorter than twenty-seven."

LOL! Nice one.

I'm glad you brought up John Hammond. We had a discussion here a while
back about how much critics have influenced the course of jazz. I
should have remembered that the entire boogie craze of the '40s and
thereabouts (which impacted on everyone from the Andrews Sisters to
Howard McGhee to John Lee Hooker) was largely kicked off by Hammond's
dogged determination to popularize boogie-woogie because he liked it,
and incredible success in doing so. There one non-musician did
influence the overall course of jazz in a direction he chose.

I don't think in promoting Goodman's or Basie's career, Hammond made
musical input that's of all that much significance. That is, saying
Hammond is important to the way Basie-influenced jazz sounded is only
like saying Brian Epstein, who knew nothing about rock, is "important"
to the way Beatles-influenced rock sounded, because he was there to
help them out so much.

Without Dodds, couldn't Goodman have gotten by by listening to Noone?
Goodman sure doesn't sound much like Dodds as jazz clarinetists go.
Best,

Joseph Scott
Gerry
2005-01-14 02:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@msn.com
I don't think in promoting Goodman's or Basie's career, Hammond made
musical input that's of all that much significance.
Didn't he get Goodman to buy Fletcher Henderson's book? I'd call that
"musical input" of a conspicous variety. Or are you saying that
Goodman and Basie weren't really significant features in Jazz?

[ I just got through listening to "Just a Gigolo" by Ted Lewis. It's
hysterical. Not as funny as the soggy biscuit, "Try a Little
Tenderness". I still think George Burns sang better. ]
--
If it's good enough for Pat Robertson,
it ought to be good enough for Christ.
The Arranger
2005-01-12 20:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yardbird O'Rooney
[Trimmed follow-up to r.m.b.]
Even when I list Basie-Young as one person
and Ellington-Strayhorn as another person and
Holiday-Wilson as another person, I * still * can't
get the list shorter than twenty-seven.
The list would have to include non-musicians,
by the way, if it is to mean anything: John
Hammond for one.
I think you need one list for the creators and
another list for the popularizers and promoters.
Neither would have survived without the other.
There wouldn't have been a Benny Goodman
from Chicago without a Johnny Dodds from New
Orleans, but without Goodman, Lionel Hampton,
Teddy Wilson, Charlie Christian, and perhaps even
Roy Eldrige might never have become the big names
that they so richly deserved to become. So, who
gets on the list -- Dodds or Goodman?
Charlie Parker or Jay McShann, who recognized an
amazing talent and gave the kid a break?
How about Teo Macero, who produced the
"Kind of Blue" sessions at great financial risk?
How about the man who signed Monk to Columbia
records (anybody remember his name?) If you think
it was "a sure thing" financially, you're dreaming.
It's a mug's game. "Ten" is far too small a number
to contain a world of infinite wonder. Who are
the ten most important people in * any * history?
Because nobody is born into a vacuum, and nobody
could have become who they were (except maybe the
Son of God, if you believe in such things) could have
achieved greatness without being able to stand on the
shoulders of giants, you can argue forever over it.
--
YO
All true, but in any case: Here are what I would consider the 25
nominees one would have to choose from. Some, such as Blakey and Basie,
are on it chiefly due to their role in defining a style and developing
talent.

Morton
Bechet
Armstrong
Redman
Hines
F. Henderson
Beiderbecke
Reinhart
Ellington
Goodman
Basie
Hawkins
Holliday
Eldridge
Young
Parker
Gillespie
Powell
Monk
Davis
Blakey
Rollins
Mingus
Coltrane
Coleman

The Arranger
Greg Sasso
2005-01-12 16:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Here's my list at this moment from someone who doesn't know much.

Satchmo
Duke Ellington
Charlie Parker
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Thelonious Monk
Dizzy
Coleman Hawkings
Dave Brubeck
Max Roach
zoot
2005-01-12 17:30:48 UTC
Permalink
tad, jelly, not blakey but silver, tyner, jones [pick one] list of 1
miles
j***@msn.com
2005-01-12 18:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Brubeck seems to get mentioned a lot these days in short lists, I'm
guessing largely because of the undue emphasis on him in the Burns
documentary. Brubeck is about as important as John Lewis, imo. Which
sure ain't chopped liver, but ain't nearly Top-Ten-List-Of-All-Jazz
either. Bill Evans and Gil Evans both had more influence on jazz than
Brubeck did, to the best of my understanding. So did Eddie Lang and
Bix. Through his influence on others who were well-known, Trumbauer
probably had more influence on the course of jazz than Brubeck has.
Probably Django and Benny Goodman qualify too. Heck, Donald Lambert may
have influenced as many as Brubeck, if you think about it. He sounded
like it was already the '50s in '45.

Joseph Scott
Yardbird O'Rooney
2005-01-12 20:40:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@msn.com
Brubeck seems to get mentioned a lot these days in short lists, I'm
guessing largely because of the undue emphasis on him in the Burns
documentary.
I doubt that it has much to do with Burns. Long before,
Brubeck had made several of the best-selling jazz albums
of all time and also the best-known jazz single in several
decades.

This gets right to the question of what we mean by
"important". Personally, I don't enjoy Brubeck's playing
and I would have to say it is an evolutionary dead-end
as far as jazz piano is concerned. Paul Desmond I enjoy
in small doses, but I have no idea whether he ever
"influenced" anybody. But when you consider that Brubeck
Quartet was the "gateway to jazz" for millions, some of
whom went on to become record-buyers and concert-goers,
then you can justify putting him on a short list of "important"
players. (Just not on * mine *! )

--
YO
Adam Bravo
2005-01-14 06:13:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yardbird O'Rooney
Post by j***@msn.com
Brubeck seems to get mentioned a lot these days in short lists, I'm
guessing largely because of the undue emphasis on him in the Burns
documentary.
I doubt that it has much to do with Burns. Long before,
Brubeck had made several of the best-selling jazz albums
of all time and also the best-known jazz single in several
decades.
This gets right to the question of what we mean by
"important". Personally, I don't enjoy Brubeck's playing
and I would have to say it is an evolutionary dead-end
as far as jazz piano is concerned. Paul Desmond I enjoy
in small doses, but I have no idea whether he ever
"influenced" anybody. But when you consider that Brubeck
Quartet was the "gateway to jazz" for millions, some of
whom went on to become record-buyers and concert-goers,
then you can justify putting him on a short list of "important"
players. (Just not on * mine *! )
Very good point - mass appeal needs to be considered to some extent.

FWIW, I'm realizing I like Brubeck more and more the more I listen to him.
j***@msn.com
2005-01-12 20:50:27 UTC
Permalink
"Heck, Donald Lambert may have influenced as many as Brubeck, if you
think about it. He sounded like it was already the '50s in '45."
Whoops -- DAVE Lambert, I meant.

Joseph Scott
Peter
2005-01-12 18:03:01 UTC
Permalink
Important is an interesting word, so looked at from another point of view,
how about these:

Leonard Feather
Herman Leonard
Norman Grantz
Stravinsky
Leonard Bernstein
Wynton Marsalis
Manfred Eicher
Alfred Lion
Muhal Richard Abrams
who?
zoot
2005-01-13 05:58:00 UTC
Permalink
not winton ........ ellis
Mr. Rick
2005-01-12 19:04:39 UTC
Permalink
who?
Bob Dylan
Trey Anastasio
Beethoven
Esteban
Topo Gigio
Jimmy Durante
Norah Jones
Billy Ray Cyrus
Elvis Costello
Hermione Gingold
Rico
2005-01-12 19:26:49 UTC
Permalink
Charley Parker,Louis Armstrong,John Coltrane,Thelonious Monk,Sidney
Bechet,Miles Davis,Ornette Coleman,Django Rheinhardt,Duke
Ellington,Coleman Hawkins
j***@msn.com
2005-01-12 20:42:08 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Rick wrote:

"Jimmy Durante"

Good jazz pianist. Played on the first known integrated jazz recording
in '18.

Joseph Scott
imsjry
2005-01-12 21:04:48 UTC
Permalink
who?
Parker
Coltrane
Davis
Armstrong
Mingus
Sun Ra
Monk
Ellington
Bassie
Marsalis

dave
Jan Winter
2005-01-12 23:21:12 UTC
Permalink
On 11 Jan 2005 18:09:36 -0800, "babu delhin"
who?
[irrelevant crossposting skipped]

The hard-core of jazz consists of:

Jelly Roll Morton
Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Coleman Hawkins
Charlie Parker
Monk
Coltrane
Albert Ayler

The last two places are reserved for the drums:

Baby Dodds
Sonny Greer / Jo Jones
Kenny Clarke / Philly JJ / Blakey
Elvin Jones
Sunny Murray

-----
jan winter, amsterdam
email: name = j.winter; provider = xs4all; com = nl
j***@msn.com
2005-01-13 01:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jan,

I don't rate Jelly Roll as highly as you do. What would be some
examples of major jazz musicians who said their playing was
significantly influenced by Jelly Roll Morton's work?

Joseph Scott
Jan Winter
2005-01-13 19:06:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@msn.com
I don't rate Jelly Roll as highly as you do. What would be some
examples of major jazz musicians who said their playing was
significantly influenced by Jelly Roll Morton's work?
I guess Morton wasn't the person to make a lot of friends, but they
certainly played his songs.
And the list of his sidemen is a sort who is who of pre-war jazz.

-----
jan winter, amsterdam
email: name = j.winter; provider = xs4all; com = nl
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...